Brūcendmōtung:Wōdenhelm

I dunno how to archive a page, but I wanted to do so with my talk page... so instead, I've decided to blank it, and just pull up the old edit history, and place its link here.

Now leave me a message, telling me how awesome I am.

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Solution

You could be getting there!

I'd be interested to see if there is a font thing we could do; that would avoid the need for creating a second version of each page and mean that every edit would update both versions. (It would also give a ȝƿ version of every page potentially.) The template solution you have worked out could be the mechanism.

Do you know how one could develop a new font? The font could be a copy of the usual Wikipedia font (whichever that is) but with ȝ and ƿ instead of g and w. The Template could then apply to that page a CSS containing the new font, which would put the whole page into that altered font, effectively then changing every w into a ƿ.

That might be the sort of thing James has been considering.

I also wondered if one can embed a preference on ones own User page which would feed through to any pages you look at. I have not got anywhere with that, but it would be the ideal.

Hogweard 13:37, 20 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

I still think that a font solution is the way to do it.  It would be far easier and far less disruptive. The programming takes a wee while but once done, it is wikiwiki.  (I should tell you my Braddock story one day as an illustration of the principle.  Actually, I should write an article.)

If the concern is that you do not want to change all the Ws to ƿs (but how else do you spell George ƿalker Bush?) then one could at a pinch have a second "W" in the normal font, a "protected W" which does not turn into a Wynn in the auxiliary ȝƿ font.

A font solution would be far less disruptive, and would not require a rewriting of every article.  The odd stray W is a minor problem.

I'm pretty sure the Wikipedia Foundation would not condone a separate Wikipedia for "Old English using ȝ and ƿ"!

Hogweard 20:22, 22 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

A font wont solve the problem, yall dont seem to get that. If you visit the Gothic Wikipedia, you'll find that there are usually 3 versions of each page: Gothic script, Latin scipt, Runic script. I found the perfect solution for you all to have your g's and w's, yet you people still oppose it. Quit being nay-sayers. Having several versions of a page is perfectly acceptable, especially since there is no standard orthography, spelling, script, dialect, or time period. I'm not creating a "separate wikipedia," just subpages. Get over it. Here I thought I found a peaceful solution, I still get flak for it. The way Ive begun doing it, no special or odd typing is required on anyone's part. Seriously, stop and look at what you wrote here... would you really wanna sit there and type like that?

The English wikipedia has over 2 million articles with, I'm sure, hundreds of thousands of edits per day. I think they can handle a few extra kilobytes on this little tiny AS wiki.

Sorry but I dont consider ridiculous ideas. —ᛁᚳ ᚻᚹᛁᛋᛈᚱᛖ ᛁᚾ ᚦᚫᛗ ᛠᚱᛖᚾ ᚦᚪᚱᚪ ᛞᛠᛞᚪ... 20:34, 22 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

New Main Page Design

I think it looks really good. Oh, by the way, I think the three page idea is good solution this thing about ȝƿ/gw.

Gherkinmad 14:16, 24 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Neologism ideas

Thanks, I do like to know how words are formed and all that. Like in Icelandic "húð|sjúk|dóma|fræði|ngur" (dermatologist). Whenever I think of a new word I do consider the Icelandic one first, although I check thoroughly on AS wikipedia to see if there's already a term for it. Oh, the "stēamwæȝn" page is very good. There is nothing I would question about it other than the word "gæsolīn". I think a more international word would be "bensīn" as most languages seem to use some form of this word to mean "gasoline" (although I'm British and we say "petrol"). It ultimately derives from the word for the chemical "Benzene". Anyway, thanks for the ideas, I would like to be thought of as a credible source for neologisms.

Gherkinmad 20:41, 24 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Sweet. I'm not hard-bent on gæsolīn at all, but I chose it not because of my being American, but because, to the best of my knowledge, that's the oldest term for a "burning liquid fuel." But yeah, let's innovate this wiki! — ᛁᚳ ᚻᚹᛁᛋᛈᚱᛖ ᛁᚾ ᚦᚫᛗ ᛠᚱᛖᚾ ᚦᚪᚱᚪ ᛞᛠᛞᚪ... 20:56, 24 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

I see. Hey, was it you that made those two articles? What were they? Sorry, I mean to make the number 1500. --Gherkinmad 23:10, 24 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Sæterlandisc

Hi, I was thinking, do you think we should move the "Sæterlandisc" page to "Sæterlendisc"? This would be in accordance with the "a->e" rule.

Gherkinmad 18:38, 27 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Ah, sounds fair. Go for it. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 21:32, 27 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

This Tórshavn thing, I based it on the fact that Copenhagen is "Cēapmann|hæfen" as "Cēapmann" seems to be the accusative not the genitive. On reflection though, I'll change it "Tórshavn" to "Þunreshæfen". --Gherkinmad 23:02, 27 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon wikipedia started

I was just wondering, do you know when AS wikipedia was started? I was thinking of putting up the date on the main page, like "AS wikipedia was started in ---- and now has ---- articles". --Gherkinmad 23:46, 1 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Gungnir

The word "gungnir" seems to come from the word "gunga" meaning "coward" or "weakling" [1]. This in turn seems to come from the word "gugna" meaning "to quail" ie. "to sway" [2]. I'll have a look tonight about what the related Old English term might be, but tell me if you find it. --Gherkinmad 12:44, 11 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

So far, I can't actually find a cognate word, but I've found "būgan" which means "to bend", "to swerve" or "to bow". Any use to you? --Gherkinmad 19:20, 11 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me for being obtuse, but how do you mean "could this be the answer"? --Gherkinmad 11:25, 15 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Re:

Hello,

Yes, I'm ready. Jagwar 08:46, 15 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Gewritu þe þurfon langmearc rihtung

Actually, I have been putting macrons in. There might be a few missing. There might be genuine academic disagreement about which vowels are long or short (or how long they are, but this is no time to quote Chomsky's observations). I can have a look over them at some time.

I see you have been doing some good work on Country Data templates. Those could prove valuable. I am only just learning more about them, having run into those templates in the English language Wikipedia.

Hogweard 07:39, 17 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Seas and places

I agree that we should try to get the most authentic, most Englisc form of any name. In every text I have, Spain is called Ispania or Hispania (or varients on them), but Ælfric slips us Speonland so we use that, and I agree. Occasional use of Ispania helps spice the project up, as variety is itself authentic, but we prefer Speonland as the most demotic form. Italy is Italia because no more Germanic form is found, though I do use Eotolware wherever possible.

The problem of the Black Sea is that the only form actually used in Englisc as far as I am aware is the Greek name, Euxinus. It is (or was) a Greek sea. If there were a more Germanic form found I would be delighted. As far as I can see though, "Black Sea" is a later designation. Snorri Sturlasson uses Svartahaf, but he is later, and in another language.

I am not fussing because I want "Blaca Mere" or "Swearta Sæ" to be right. ("Blæc" is a better translation of the Turkish.) There are (according to utterly unsourced material in the NE Wikipedia) vague suggestions of early use of "Black Sea", but I see no evidence for its use in Englisc.

It is not as if it were an sea unknown to the Angelcynn, where we dare simply to translate a new name back to what it would have been; I will readily call the Yellow Sea the "Geolwa Sæ" but I will not call the White Sea the "Hwita Mere", because we know the Englisc name: Cwensæ.

It is sadly inevitable that when describing Greek places one ends up using Greek names, but if you can find a source for another name, brilliant.

Hogweard 20:24, 19 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Well, the cognate for the Icelandic "haf" is "hæf", so in that case it would probably be "þæt Swearte Hæf". --Gherkinmad 21:36, 19 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

The closest I can find to "Haf" in Englisc is Heaf. However it is rather idiomatic. I have not seen it in any place-name (only in Beowulf). (In German "Haff" is used for two bodies of water: Frisches Haff (Estmere) and Kurisches Haff. Those might be names borrowed from Swedish though.)

For place-names, [hang on, I'm unindenting for this...]

To assign place-names, there are several different situations:

• Known places with an attested Germanic name in OE: we adopt the most common form (Irland over Iraland or indeed Scotland).
• Known places with two or more attested name in OE: we adopt the Germanic form (Orcanege (ASC 1066) over Orcades (Orosius) or Orcadus (ASC 61), Speonland (Ælfric) over Ispania (every other known text!)).
• Unknown places: if it is known by its local name, we adopt:
  • the local name or an Anglicized (or Engliscgewyht) version of it, or
  • the common Mn E name, or
  • if that name is descriptive in English (for example "The Yellow River", itself a translation of the local Chinese name "Huang Ho") then we can render it as the Englisc equivalent.
• Entirely new geographical divisions: we panic!
• Where a name has changed in MnE then the change might be:
  • That the name has not actually changed but usage has, adopting the name given by another language ("Persia" becoming known as "Iran", "Constantinople" becoing "Istambul", "Peking" as "Beijing"), in which case the change is not a change at all and we ignore it, or
  • That the name has changed by decree ("Tsaritsyn" becoming "Stalingrad" becoming "Volgograd", "Derry" becoming "Londonderry") in which case:
    • Is there an attested name in OE we can stick with?
    • Are all the alternative names unknown to OE (like the above examples) in which case we make our own minds up.

The crunch came in this case with a known place-name from an OE text: Euxinus. It is a Græco-Latin name for a Greek sea. Inevitably foreign places have foreign names, and places first described by Heroditus or Roman authors became known to the Anglecynn by their Greek or Latin names. That does not make them wrong.

The guidestar, I believe, is actual, attested names. We can be ready to change the adopted name if a Germanic equivalent is found in actual use in Englisc. If it is not, we have to stick with the genuine one.

Hogweard 08:04, 22 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Chestnuts

Just wondering where you got Ceastanhnutu. The chestnut tree is a cystel (prob. fem.) or cystbeam. I would assume the nut itself would be cysthnutu. The article then would be Winlendiscu cystel.

You might be right though; I don't have every source at my fingertips.

Hogweard 22:47, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Ya know, actually, you're right. Using your word you provided, I was able to find the translation. I wasnt able to find "chestnut" in any of my sources, so I was going by the earliest instance of "chestnut" in English, trying to artificially work my way backwards on that. I'll gladly correct it. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 22:52, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Re: Please do not alter orthography

Hi Wōdenhelm. I was unavoidably offline during the original style vote and missed the outcome. I was unable to find a conclusive result indicating the outcome of the the vote. Could you please provide some link where the outcome of the vote, favouring a biscript compromise, is explained?

I personally wouldn't favour such an outcome, because I think the number of modern writers in Old English overwhelmingly favours w, g, etc. But I acknowledge that since I didn't participate in the vote, I can't protest that now. (That said, as an aside I have to say that while I am firmly against any notion of page ownership, it's a bit galling to have to you lecture me about changing orthography on the William the Conqueror page, given that you changed the original orthography I used when I created the page.)

I understand some technical solutions have been proposed to let the character display be controlled by a client-side user preference, though none seem to have been found satisfactory as of yet. I would be happy to help with any such effort; I know some problems like this have been faced and solved on the Chinese and Serbo-Croatian wikipedias. --Saforrest 23:52, 22 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)